The New Mandalorian Movement

I've never been a fan of the Clone Wars series for many reasons, and when I first heard about how they were essentially neutering the Mandolorians, I started to just straight-up hate the show.

One of my favorite series of novels within the Star Wars EU were the Commando novels by Karen Traviss, and one reason I liked them was because of how much they expanded on Mando culture. And then, LucasArts and the Clone Wars spits on all of that and essentially destroys it.

I understand Lucas has the rights to Star Wars and as it's creator can do with it and it's universe as he pleases, but at some point you have to take into consideration what the fans want and like; after all, we're the ones who made his movies a success and built his empire for him. Without us and our devotion, he would have nothing.

I'm not sure if he doesn't see this, doesn't care, or if the only fans he listens to are the ones who obediently swallow every line of crap he throws at them and treat it like gold.

I believe Karen Traviss walked away from writing any more Star Wars novels because of this debacle. The good news is that I heard she's now working on a Halo novel.

I've had a few people try and tell me the Mandolorian revamp isn't that bad, but no one can give me any specifics/reasons as to WHY it's not that bad, and it's never a good sign when someone can't back up their claims of why something is good. Personally, none of what I've heard about it sounds good in any way, shape or form.

Gimme back my beloved commando-for-hire culture of badasses, please; sissies without the will to fight can feel free to move to Alderaan and stay there for the rest of their oh-so-short lives.

________
Links removed because the spam filter apparently doesn't like me, but I shall have vengeance. And maybe beer. Beer and vengeance.

I've just recently picked up all 5 of the Republic/Imperial Commando novels by Karen Traviss, and I am really enjoying them so far. Its a shame about the conflict surrounding the continuity regarding these stories - I haven't watched the Clone Wars series yet and don't plan to until after reading the RC novels. I get the impression they are far better, so I'd rather be biased by them than the show, oddly enough. I agree with Seghast - while Lucas certainly has the right to do as he pleases with the SW universe, its unfortunate he can't see that it has become larger than him, and maybe allow some things to remain in there that are really well done by others, especially when all the fans are supporting it by spending their money on what they like...

I definitely agree with you, Seghast. They completely destroyed the Mandolorian culture. Republic Commando is definitely my favorite series and it's infuriating that the series will never be finished because of a stupid decision by George Lucas. To get my full thoughts about the entire show read my blog.

http://hadabaddon.blogspot.com/2010/10/clone-wars-retrospective-of-show…

http://hadabaddon.blogspot.com/2010/10/clone-wars-retrospective-of-show…

I don't want to start an argument (and much less a flame war), so please take my comments for what they are. I wish only to express my views on the matter.

As I see it, the plotline revealed in the Clone Wars doesn't necessarily contradict previously established EU material. The Duchess of Mandalore, and by extension the government in power (referred to as the New Mandalorians), promote a pacifist attitude, at odds with historical precedent. They came to power in 730 BBY, after a conflict with the Republic. While the more militant factions scattered and went into hiding, the New Mandalorians gained a political foothold and, at the time of the Clone Wars, are pretty much running the show.

Does this mean that the Mandalorian culture as we're familiar with it doesn't exist? Of course not. At no point is the wealth of information summarily dismissed, and there is real world historical precedent for government organizations coming into power that don't necessarily reflect the attitudes of the people. It's possible that the New Mandalorians are allowed to stay in power so that the militant beskar-donning factions can lick their wounds and otherwise keep a low profile to amass power. Pre Viszla and his ilk are evidence not only that "familiar" Mandos exist, but that some of them are crazy enough to try and step in to oust the current regime.

All that is taking place during the Clone Wars, circa 20 BBY. The EU material where we most see the core mechanics of the "Cincinnatus" style Mandos (quiet farmers who take up arms-- and armor-- when the need arises) occurs around 30 ABY. That's a span of roughly 50 years; in Star Wars, where Evil Empires can last thirty years or less, and the galaxy can change completely in the span of a decade, it's not inconceivable to surmise that the New Mandalorians were ousted and the status quo of "true" Mandalore was reestablished.

I don't see a destruction of the Mandalorian culture here. On the contrary, I see an enrichment of the culture's history, through the rise and fall of an abberantly pacifistic breed of Mando coming to the fore at at time when it would be best for Mandalore, as a people, to remain below the radar. After all, don't you think the Republic, CIS, or both would have dscended en masse to strip mine the system of beskar, truly decimating the people and bringing an end to their way of life. Mandos are survivors, and they know when to bare their claws and when to bide time in their den.

At least, that's how I see the whole thing. It's a shame that the otherwise creative minds behind the unfortunate controversy couldn't come together and devise what some nobody fan sees as a tidy resolution. I also encourage giving Clone Wars a chance. Dave Filoni, the Supervising Director, is a real champion of continuity, working to negotiate between EU canon and the direction of George Lucas. He's made great strides in the effort, IMO. But if you're just not into the show that's fine too.

I like Traviss' Mandos. (Although I have huge problems with her handling of the commando books toward the end... but that's another topic.)

I've never been into the Clone Wars CGI show. Saw the 'movie' and then figured I'd wait and buy them a season at a time. Then I didn't hear much of anything good about them...so inever bothered.

However, as a mando fan, I did hear lots of conversation about the pacifist mando episodes. I think it's an interesting take on it. Reminds me a bit of the real-world Japan after WWII. The Japanese had this bushido warrior code for thousands of years. They were ready to take on the world. Then when they were forced to unconditionally surrender, there was a stark and rather abrupt change in the culture.

To this day they still do not officially have a military. Its a 'self defence force', and the Japanese people get very angry if there are any attempts made to try to expand its size, scope or role.

Just an interesting observation, that may or may not have influenced the nature of the TV show.

For the record though, it's kind of a dick thing to do when Lucas has to know how popular the mando subculture is. It almost seems like he wanted to take Traviss down a peg, show her who is the real boss of Star Wars. (And in my opinion she certainly needed it in some respects.)

Don't worry, Eben, the only true hater here is me. I hate literally everything about Mandalorians and wish they had never been invented. I have many arguments with Drig about how much I dislike even just the idea of Mandalorians. lol

Boshuda

Asok, do we need to step outside?

See, what I don't get is the anger about it. I mean, my own personal belief is that 1: Mandos are pretty cool, but I think there are some aspects where they are taken too far, and 2: the Star Wars universe is so big that if you wish to role play or write within it you can practically ignore great swaths of material and still have a rich and fulfilling experience.

Why must such things be stirred up into controversy? Why can't creative minds come together and reach an accord? I loved the Republic Commando series of books, and I'm saddened that they were cut short.

At the risk of starting a flame war, I think it's worth mentioning why I'm such a hater. At the core of it, I think I'm just opposed to this overarching trend of picking up little things from the movies and running full force with them until a meaningless element of the films becomes a major culture/tradition/history. Sometimes a cool suit of armor can just be a cool suit of armor.
It's funny to me how the whole Mandalorian thing started because Boba Fett had a unique suit of armor. I wonder why it couldn't have just been a cool, unique suit of armor?

That said, Star Wars is an organic, evolving entity, and you guys and Karen Traviss and the Clone Wars cartoons are all free to input and enjoy what you want. I will always prefer the zany, often aimless adventure serial nature of Star Wars, and its ties to sci-fi of its era (and past eras). And for me, Mandos just don't jibe with that.

Boshuda

How does that start a flame war?

Holy crap, a completely rational, coherent debate featuring individuals with wildly differing viewpoints... ON THE INTERNET?!

See, this is why I love this place. Come for the art, stay for the awesome.

(I'll try to unravel my own thoughts on the matter after my coffee.)

That was some good morning coffee.

SO!

Gotta say, there are some great points made in this here thread! Hah. First and foremost, Asok, there's a part of me that resonates so powerfully with what you've said there! 'Sometimes a cool suit of armour can just be a cool suit of armour' ...amen to that. Forever and ever amen! I think it's kind of related my extreme aversion to the way species get typecast; where the one single fleeting example of a species we ever see suddenly becomes COMPLETELY REPRESENTATIVE OF EVERY MEMBER OF THAT SPECIES, or an offhand comment suddenly becomes a MAJOR AND OVERWHELMING PART OF THAT SPECIES BIOLOGY (seriously, you want to hear me rant? It'll be about the treatment of animals in the universe. Man oh man. EVERYONE, YOU'RE DOING IT ALL WRONG. AND DOMESTICATION DOESN'T MEAN THAT!!!) -- but that's another rant for another day. ;)

And all that aside, I do have to admit I'm quite powerfully fond of Karen Travis' novels. I like the way she plays the 'other side' of the story (--loved her novelisation of the Clone Wars film, man, she actually made me give a damn about Jabba the Hutt, never thought I'd see the day!!), the way she drags shades of grey through what is often portrayed as a very black-and-white universe. My husband is a totally hopeless Mando-fan, too, so he's probably influenced my feelings a tad, too-- though I can state for a fact that I am very, very, VERY over the 'Mandalorian Jedi' character concept. XD Hah. I have yet to see the 'Mando' episodes of Clone Wars; husband went pretty ape when he heard about it, nowadays he just shrugs and says he considers the cartoons to be the 'Alternate Universe', not the novels. But I really, really like the ideas you've put forward to reconcile the issue, Evan. Very nice thoughts on the matter, which might actually give the dear hubby a bit of peace!

Dred, I'm painfully curious about your feelings regarding Travis' 'handling of the commando books'! Care to share, if you don't think it'll incite to much forum rage? Though I have yet to get my hands on the final book (post Order 66; whatever it's titled), and would appreciate avoidance of any outright spoilers. ;)

I like coffee.

I used to be all for gluing the whole damn universe to be one coherent story, but now that I realize a great majority of the stories that have been written are not that great, I do what Evan said and just ignore the parts I dislike. Easy enough. I've heard these arguments a million times about the yuhzan vong, mandalorians, prequel jedi, the clone wars, etc.... And my general thought is to ignore those things. More smugglers, wack species, spaceship battles, and cool planets, oh wait, thats right I like the mass effect universe more now... :P

And Tusserk I hate the way species are represented in Star Wars too. Sebulba's just an ass, plain and simple!

And I've never argued with you Asok, just tried to help you see why some actually like the star wars universe as is. I dont. :P

Right. Prequels? What prequels?

Boshuda

No, Drig, Dugs have a society-imposed predisposition to violence and thuggery as well as highly refined podracing genes.....!

(Ugh!!)

My main problem with the whole Mandolorian change is that it cut short the Imperial Commando series, and so now I'll never be able to find out what happens to the characters. This really angers me, because the Republic Commando series is my favorite series that I've read so far because it isn't about the Jedi. It's just about "normal" people, and I thought that was a very refreshing look at the Star Wars universe. As a result from reading that series, I came to greatly enjoy the Mandolorian culture which seemed very rich and deep to me. And so I was angered when they were effectively neutered and made out to be peace loving, kumbaya singing people (sorry, I can tend to get upset about this so please nobody get angry).

Anyway, I agree, we can simply ignore that entire part of the universe and that will work really well. But the writers can't do that and so, most likely, the story will never be finished. Anyway, I hope I didn't incite much anger among you.

And you don't even have to take it to the extreme of active rejection, either. My group was never that fond of the Dark Empire comics, for example, but we never came out and explicitly stated the events never happened; we simply glossed over that point if any discrepancies arose (and none even did, as I recall).

My point is-- and I'll try to bring thisback to the topic at hand-- if you have a problem with the New Mandos you can simply ignore them for the purposes of your game. I mean there were literally millennia where Mandalore wasn't run by pacifists; set games in those times or, if you must play in the ROTE era, fashion your campaign so that the political situation isn't even an issue. Honestly, what Fandalorian gamer gravitates to Mandos for political intrigue?

You can even take things in the other direction. You hate the New Mandos? Put together a campaign where you help rid Mandalore of their debilitating influence and usher in the military renaissance present in the EU. With so many such options I find it difficult to say anything was "ruined."

I'm frustrated about the premature end of the series as well, Michael, but I don't see that as anything but the inability of Lucas, Traviss, and anyone else involved to come to an understanding on the matter. None of us know the details of the situation, but from the evidence presented I think things were really blown out of proportion. When all the dust settled I just can't see what the original fuss was about. What, precisely speaking, was "neutered" about the Mandalorian culture? Earlier, Seghast talked about how people would say the New Mandos aren't so bad after all, but wouldn't give any specifics on the matter. I feel I've filled that gap (if I haven't please say so), but I've yet to see any evidence to suggest any irrevocable harm to the Mando culture. Gimme something concrete here, something we can point to and say, "This: this is no longer possible thanks to Lucas' interference."

Over at http://forum.clonecommandos.net/
also known as 'Brothers All', we talk at length about this sort of thing. I'm a mod there, so do drop in and and say hi, if you have a love for the GAR, RCs, or mandos.

Anyways,
Here is what KT posted on her blog about how she planned to end the series, if she had been allowed to do it her way:

[spoiler]

I'm just an ordinary civilian like you in SW terms now, so what follows has no validity and it isn't spoilers. It's just stuff that was in my notebook. I'm posting it because almost everyone who mails me now about Star Wars wants to know how the final Commando book would have turned out. Well, it would have been artificially packed with thread resolutions. for a start, because the Commando series was based on the old canon and so originally designed to run a lot longer. So I would have had to tie up a lot of things prematurely in a final book - still in the old canon, but not quite where the book would have gone under normal circumstances.

Also, there's no guarantee that this would have been the shape of the final book. When I write, I think I know roughly where the characters are heading, but they often surprise me. I always follow where they lead, so they might well have gone off on another tangent. But, for what it's worth, these are the bullet points, in no particular order. I hope it gives you some closure. If you don't like the way it ended, then you have the comfort that it never happened anyway.

* Jusik has to rub Arla’s memory to enable her to cope with her trauma. Afterwards, she doesn’t remember being Arla Fett or what happened to her family, but she knows who she is – she just doesn’t feel the pain of memory. Jusik marries her.
* Skirata and Altis team up, and the Nulls help Altis fake his own death to escape. Scout is adopted by Gilamar and Uthan, but she remains a Jedi with Altis’s sect.
* Skirata and Ny marry, as do Gilamar and Uthan.
* Maze and Zey (unrubbed memory) go off and become the Starsky and Hutch of the galaxy with Altis, along with Kina Ha. (Also unrubbed – Skirata reaches some kind of peace with at least some Kaminoans.)
* Uthan perfects the treatment to stop the clones’ accelerated aging.
* Darman comes back, kidnaps Kad, and goes on the run.Niner deserts and joins the clan at Kyrimorut.
* The Death Watch find out that Gilamar killed Priest, and go hunting for Skirata’s clan.
* Rede turns out to be a loyal and not-all-that-naive trooper and Skirata is forced to kill him to save the others, an act that haunts him for the rest of his life.
* The clan is forced to flee off-planet in a ba’slan shev’la (strategic disappearance) to evade the Empire.
* Darman shows up again with Kad and joins them as they disappear.

[/spoiler]

@ Tusserk

My feelings of KT's commando books.

In a nutshell (As i recently discussed with grendeljd)

The books started great, Hard Contact is the best.

The problem with KT is...she begins to love her characters..too much. It becomes and indulgence of her own fantasy. She has loses objectivity for the Star Wars universe...it becomes 'her' mandos against the galaxy. She develops the mandalorian culture...which is well and good on its own, but the story slowly shifts away from the idea of Republic Commandos fighting a war, to the day to day trials and tribulations of this particular squad, and their legendary trainer/ surrogate father-figure Skirata. In Hard Contact he is mentioned only as the squad's hard-ass training sergeant. I enjoyed him best as a well-remembered drill sergeant.

In subsequent books he appears as a character...and soon becomes THE main character...and his own agenda takes over to the point where it is no longer even about Republic Commandos, but about the Mandalorians he is making them into. I want to read 'TRUE EXPLOITS OF THE DARING REPUBLIC COMMANDOS!' (The same way I like watching 'True Tales of the US Navy SEALS' on the military channel.) What I do not want to see is the elite of the GAR foucsing on figuring out ways to become disenchanted with their role and find ways to subvert and desert the force they are fighting for.

KT also wrote some other star wars books...some of the ones that take place years after Return of the Jedi. They involve Boba Fett and various Mandalorian aspects...and some of the characters and descendants that made their first appearance in the Commando books. She also wrote the official Star Wars guide to the Grand Army of the Republic. She was eventually recognized as THE authority on the Star Wars republic as far as the military aspect goes. Some of which she screwed up...like that ungodly debate about how many clones are in the GAR.

She also developed the mando culture almost single-handedly, including a working language. So with all this ahem 'power', I personally believed she started pushing the envelope too far, and the fandalorian influence was really starting to take over...almost like a religion being subverted by a new heretical faction of exremists.

Some (like me) believe that for many star Wars fans, Mandos were becoming way more popular than the Jedi, which really, were meant to be the major 'soul' of the franchise. KT's books, quickly take a very politically charged Anti-jedi stance. So you now have a shit load of star wars fanatics that look at the good guys, the guardians of peace a justice, the guys who are the white in the Lucas created world of black and white morality, the guys like Obi Wan Kenobi, as the true bad guys, and they actually cheer when the clones execute Order 66, as if they Jedi got what they deserved.

Lucas probably hated that idea, and this growing sub culture within 'his' universe. There was a lot of contoversy a few years ago, in interviews with Travis from various sci fi magazines and websites etc, about why Travis hates Jedi and such.

Lucas apparently has a pretty major hand in the Clone Wars TV show...much more than any thing else in the EU. In fact, he admits he never reads any of the EU books or comics at all.

As far as Lucas was concerned, based on his concept of Boba Fett from his first appearance in the Star Wars Christmas Special and Empire Strikes Back, was that the Mandalorians were an extinct culture of warriors that once helped eradicate the jedi. Boba was just supposed to be a guy who wore the armor for the cool, don't fuck with me' factor...like a modern guy might wear a jacket with a swastika or SS insignia on it, or an outlaw biker patch.

When he made the prequels, the same idea was transferred to Jango. The Mandalorians were still long-extinct, and Jango just wore the trappings...and Boba took after his father.

Then all this Fandalorian stuff emerged...and Lucas had never read any of Travis' books....

So I imagine Lucas decided to neuter the Mandos, just to show Traviss that she can go off on a fantasy if she wants...but he still holds the reigns. "So you made an ultimate culture of super- bad-ass warriors? Well then....poof...that kind of mandos are now extinct, as I always envisioned it."

I do like KTs mando culture. They are infectious. I just never let them ruin the rest of star wars for me like a lot of Fandalorians have. Either way, as far as I know the EU community at large has already retconned Lucas' retcons to officially allow both KTs version and the TV version to co-exist more-or-less logically.

There's a whole thread on it on Brothers All. (come see...)

Y'all make some very good points and, while I realize that there isn't really any lasting damage to the over all story line, I just wish I could have found out what happens to my favorite characters. It's very interesting to hear all of that information and I now believe that I understand you take on it. I simply meant by "neutered" that he had made them into a peace-loving faction, and while I have nothing against peace, it was simply annoying to me when I found out that with a couple of episodes, an entire culture was essentially subverted and replaced with the current culture, which I don't enjoy as much. anyway, I thank you al for your very interesting points of view and I think that this has helped me get over my anger with the Clone Wars series. Will I watch it? Probably not, because there are still other things in the show which rub me the wrong way. However, I will now be able to look back at the RC series and remember t with fondness, and not as a source of frustration with George Lucas.

Also, Dred, that was an insanely long post. Just saying.

I never liked the idea of Mandalorians being a diverse multicultural group bound by a shared vision and language and such. In my head, Mandalorians (which are extinct, in my conception) are Maoris of Star Wars. New Zealand accents and all. ;)

Boshuda

IMO...I stick with, Mandos were like space Spartans. (not the "300" spartans). They were all but wiped out and only a handful remain. They started acepting other races to boister their ranks but that will take generations. Janga was one of the FEW last mandos and Bobba is a clone of one. Running into one is a rare thing..so ( puts fingers in ears )La la la la la

I think that's also Drig's view.

Boshuda

Insanely long post, perhaps, but thanks for it, Dred! I'm also having a bit of a flick through 'Brothers All'... there's some interesting rainy day reading in there, for sure.

And I must admit I find some of Travis' comments relayed on those forums to be just a bit disenchanting (especially the 'pure business' things-- I mean, I know I'm the hopelessly sentimental sort, but to claim no emotional investment in her characters at all? Kal Skirata means absolutely nothing to her but another bank deposit? Really?), not to mention the... shall we call it devotion of some of the more hardcore Mando fans? I was always kind of peripherally aware of the popularity of Mandalorians (cheers, husband-o-mine!) but since my involvement in SW fandom in general only extends as far as my home game and SWAG, some of these attitudes are a bit of a revelation to me!

I'll happily stand by my enjoyment of the books; even right through them turning from Republic Commando into 'Skirata's Crusade', but I'll also agree that the powerful anti-Jedi sentiment did kind of irk me. I imagine it would have done FAR moreso if I'd been hearing the fan's cheers at Order 66 at the same time! Though I can't help but wonder if my own feelings are not so much due to staying loyal to the original 'soul' of the franchise (which I wholeheartedly agree that the Jedi are), and more from the fact that my introduction to the greater SW universe has been almost completely through the eyes of a young hopeful Trandoshan Jedi, and that I've spent many hours of my life faithfully arguing in defence of the Order through glorious sociable home-made fiction. (Actually, I've just reminded myself of a time when I reacted directly to KT's writing, from Tusserk's perspective!)

But anyway, my thoughts aren't exactly even staying on topic any more, so I might just wrap up there. In short; thanks for the enlightenment, Dred!

Ok I have read all the above posts and have to tell you all this is the most intelligent civil debate I have ever seen in a Star Wars related forum.
That said, I love everything about Mando's and their armor based warrior culture. I have read most of the info I could find on the Mandalorian Wars and Mando history, part of being an artist is researching what your depicting. :)
It is what makes Star Wars better than any other Sci-Fi out there is that it's not limited to what Lucas says. lol. And it never will be no matter what he does. It belongs to those willing to take part in it's continued creation. It belongs to us. ;)
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"Creation is a Gift... Use it well."